WOW.. I found this video in Stumble upon. Seems real.. UFO's.. The mysterious flying objects.. This video is pretty gu infact.. caught them from a close distance.. Must watch..
Thursday, August 23, 2007
Copywriting: Eliminate "Writer's Block" Forever
Here's a good link about how to start writing.. if you write as bad like me.. :).. Two secrets... Ths first I knew but this blog reminded me.. The second one is also true.. That is how all the authors get their books in such a great language...
Copywriting: Eliminate "Writer's Block" Forever
Copywriting: Eliminate "Writer's Block" Forever
Monday, August 20, 2007
The vi editor causes brain damage.. Ha Ha Ha
This is from Linux Kernel Mailing List.. This is about a guy who hates "vi editor" (BTW.. I like it though it is tough).. An awsome read.. Mailing Lists can be fun... :)
Also note what is revealed subtly - The awesome power of Linux... A Linux Developer (Ollie Wild) could change the arument list length of all commands in a moment and also commit the changes for the next build... WOW!!!
=====================================================
Subject: The vi editor causes brain damage
------------------------
From: Marc Perkel
To: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 10:50 AM
Let me give you and example of the difference between
Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
what it's like out here in the real world.
Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
rm *
What do you get?
/bin/rm: Argument list too long
If you map a network drive in DOS and type:
del *
It works.
That's the problem with the type of thinking in the
open source world. Why can DOS delete an infinite
number of files and rm can't? Because rm was written
using the "vi" editor and it causes brain damage and
that's why after 20 years rm hasn't caught up with
del.
Before everyone gets pissed off and freaks out why
don't you ponder the question why rm won't delete all
the files in the directory. If you can't grasp that
then you're brain damaged.
Think big people. Say NO to vi!
Marc Perkel
Junk Email Filter dot com
From: Al Viro
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:45 AM
On Sat, Aug 18, 2007 at 10:20:34PM -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
[snip]
Marc, why don't you do the obvious thing and hire Jeff Merkey?
He used to work on netware kernel, you are a netware fanboy...
Hell, he might even share - his peyotl for whatever you are on;
it certainly has... intriguing effects, so who knows - maybe the
mix will give the right kind of out-of-box experience for you ;-)
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Al Viro
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:59 AM
--- Al Virowrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2007 at 10:20:34PM -0700, Marc
> Perkel wrote:
> > Let me give you and example of the difference
> between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> [snip]
>
> Marc, why don't you do the obvious thing and hire
> Jeff Merkey?
> He used to work on netware kernel, you are a netware
> fanboy...
> Hell, he might even share - his peyotl for whatever
> you are on;
> it certainly has... intriguing effects, so who knows
> - maybe the
> mix will give the right kind of out-of-box
> experience for you ;-)
>
hmmmmm .....
So if you take Peyote then you think of things like
"rm *" should delete all the files in a folder and if
you're not on drugs then del from DOS being better
than rm in Linux is OK.
For what it's worth. I agree it seems to be that way.
I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
fantastic.
Marc Perkel
Junk Email Filter dot com
--------
From: Jiri Slaby
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
>
> rm *
>
> What do you get?
>
> /bin/rm: Argument list too long
What does this have to do with rm command?
--
Jiri Slaby (jirislaby at the rate of gmail.com)
Faculty of Informatics, Masaryk University
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 9:54 AM
On Sunday 19 August 2007, Marc Perkel wrote:
> > > Let me give you and example of
> > > brain damaged thinking
> > > out here in the real world.
> I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
> fantastic.
Sounds like it hasn't worn off yet.
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Willy Tarreau
To: Jiri Slaby
Cc: Marc Perkel, linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 12:51 PM
On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 09:15:22AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> > Let me give you and example of the difference between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
> >
> > Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
> >
> > rm *
> >
> > What do you get?
> >
> > /bin/rm: Argument list too long
>
> What does this have to do with rm command?
Nothing, and no more with linux development. Marc confuses shell and rm.
Under DOS, when he types "del *", the shell calls the builtin function
"del" and passes it only one argument "*". The del function is then
responsible for iterating through the files using getfirst/getnext.
This is also why mostly only builtin shell commands support "*", while
most external commands do not support it, since they have to re-implement
the same code to iterate through the files (try "debug c*.com", it will
not work).
Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names to
the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in arguments
can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs were invented!
The solution is easy : find . -maxdepth 1 xargs rm
So this has nothing to do with rm, nor with rm being open-source, and
even less with rm being written with vi, and Marc's rant is totally
wrong and off-topic. Maybe he was drunk when posting, or maybe someone
used his keyboard to make him look like a complete fool. Or maybe he
really is.
Willy
(please do not follow up on this OT thread, responses to /dev/null)
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Benny Amorsen
To: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:01 PM
>>>>> "WT" == Willy Tarreauwrites:
WT> Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names
WT> to the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in
WT> arguments can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs
WT> were invented!
It would be very handy if the argument memory space was expanded.
Many years ago I hit the limit regularly on Solaris, and going to
Linux with its comparatively large limit was a joy. Now it happens to
me quite often on Linux as well.
What are the primary problems with expanding it? It used to be
swappable memory, is that still the case?
/Benny
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Paolo Ornati
To: Benny Amorsen
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:09 PM
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:31:21 +0200
Benny Amorsenwrote:
> >>>>> "WT" == Willy Tarreauwrites:
>
> WT> Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names
> WT> to the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in
> WT> arguments can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs
> WT> were invented!
>
> It would be very handy if the argument memory space was expanded.
> Many years ago I hit the limit regularly on Solaris, and going to
> Linux with its comparatively large limit was a joy. Now it happens to
> me quite often on Linux as well.
>
done :)
commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
Author: Ollie Wild
Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
mm: variable length argument support
Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by copying the strings
directly from the old mm into the new mm.
--
Paolo Ornati
Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896 on x86_64
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:37 PM
--- hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net wrote:
> On Sunday 19 August 2007, Marc Perkel wrote:
> > > > Let me give you and example of
>
> > > > brain damaged thinking
>
> > > > out here in the real world.
>
> > I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
> > fantastic.
>
> Sounds like it hasn't worn off yet.
Afreed.
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Jiri Slaby
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:38 PM
--- Jiri Slabywrote:
> Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> > Let me give you and example of the difference
> between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
> >
> > Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
> >
> > rm *
> >
> > What do you get?
> >
> > /bin/rm: Argument list too long
>
> What does this have to do with rm command?
>
See what I mean?
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Willy Tarreau, Jiri Slaby
Cc: Marc Perkel, linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:52 PM
[Quoted text hidden]The important point that you are missing here is that
the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
committed to getting it right.
Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
number of files.
I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
this.
THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
cult.
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Willy Tarreau
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Jiri Slaby, linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:03 PM
On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 06:22:37AM -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
The important point you are missing is that it is not the rm command
which is broken. Either it's *all* commands or it's *your* way of
thinking how they should work.
I could play your game and say the "type" command is broken under
DOS. Why can't I do "type *" under DOS while I can do "cat *" under
linux ? For the exact same reason : the "*" is not processed at
the same place. Unix initially chose to process it in the caller,
and DOS later chose to process it in the callee. Neither is right,
neither is wrong, those are just two different approaches which may
be justified in their context. Having discovered DOS at 1.25 which
did not even support directories, I certainly can say that missing
globbing was not a problem at this time!
> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
> committed to getting it right.
It has nothing to do with programming standards, the rm command works
exactly like all others. Touch does the same, mv does the same, etc...
Educate yourself before stating idiocies like this !
> Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
> try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
> Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
> of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
> number of files.
$ rm -rf $DIR will remove an unlimited number of files in this directory.
If you want to make a special case of "rm", then implement the special
case in the command and make it possible to pass it a globbing expression
just like you can do with find. But this will be useless.
> I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
> this.
Oh yes, they are surely laughing at you, but at the same time they may
feel sad to be defended by people puting such stupid statements in public.
> THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
>
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
Yes, I really think you're the only one who has this problem. Don't you
think that among those tens of millions of users, none of them has ever
had to remove a directory full of files in 20 years ? Please stop taking
yourself for the center of the world and buy a "unix for newbies" book
instead of complaining the world is not like you would like it to be.
Willy
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Torsten Duwe
To: Willy Tarreau
Cc: Jiri Slaby, linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:25 PM
On Sunday 19 August 2007, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 09:15:22AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> > What does this have to do with rm command?
> Nothing, and no more with linux development. Marc confuses shell and rm.
> (please do not follow up on this OT thread, responses to /dev/null)
Then do not answer in the first place. Do not answer at all. There's tons of
good literature that explains this. Don't feed the troll.
Torsten
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Jose Celestino
Reply-To: Marc Perkel, Willy Tarreau , Jiri Slaby , linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Willy Tarreau, Jiri Slaby , linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:36 PM
Words by Marc Perkel [Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 06:22:37AM -0700]:
[Quoted text hidden]Yuhu! The rm command isn't broken (nothing is broken related to this).
Have you been reading? Can you even (read)?
Fscking troll.
--
Jose Celestino
"And on the trillionth day, Man created Gods." -- Thomas D. Pate
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Paolo Ornati
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Willy Tarreau, Jiri Slaby , Marc Perkel , linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 8:18 PM
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
Marc Perkelwrote:
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
Fixed in 2.6.23-rc (and not just for "rm"):
commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
Author: Ollie Wild
Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
mm: variable length argument support
Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by copying the strings
directly from the old mm into the new mm.
[...]
--
Paolo Ornati
Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896-dirty on x86_64
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Paolo Ornati
Cc: Willy Tarreau, Jiri Slaby , Marc Perkel , linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 9:02 PM
--- Paolo Ornatiwrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
> Marc Perkelwrote:
>
> > 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions
> of
> > users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has
> a
> > problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux
> is a
> > cult.
>
>
> Fixed in 2.6.23-rc (and not just for "rm"):
>
> commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
> Author: Ollie Wild
> Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
>
> mm: variable length argument support
>
> Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by
> copying the strings
> directly from the old mm into the new mm.
> [...]
>
> --
> Paolo Ornati
> Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896-dirty on x86_64
>
Good man!
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Arjan van de Ven
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:02 PM
On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 06:22 -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
no the important point is that you're an absolute horrible troll and are
posting things to the ENTIRELY WRONG MAILING LIST. For some people who
are new that happens sometimes as accident. You know better.
So please take this elsewhere and try to have better judgement in the
future as to what mailinglist you want to send your complaints to.
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Valdis.Kletnieks at the rate of vt.edu
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 1:44 AM
Attachments: noname
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:20:34 PDT, Marc Perkel said:
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
>
> rm *
>
> What do you get?
>
> /bin/rm: Argument list too long
Given that you don't even understand that this message is issued by the
*shell* and not /bin/rm, and *why* it issues that sort of error message
when an argument string expands to be bigger than MAX_ARGV, and the fact
that there are extant patches to increase that to essentially any reasonable
size, why should we listen to you when you proclaim that you have any sort
of enlightenment about systems design?
--------
From: Michael Tharp
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 4:33 AM
Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
> committed to getting it right.
Thanks man, you've made my day. I haven't laughed this hard at a mildly
technical discussion in weeks.
> Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
> try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
> Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
> of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
> number of files.
Calling something that bas been working for decades broken, and offering
a vague idea that is not only riddled with usability issues but also
unimplementable in an even remotely efficient manner, and yet expecting
people to jump into action and write it for you while deprecating an
enormous amount of existing code, is something best described as
surreal. Disregarding peer review and calling it an "attack" is just
icing on the cake.
> I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
> this.
Probably at you.
> THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
>
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
All hail Linus the great.
-- m. tharp
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Casey Dahlin
To: Michael Tharp
Cc: Marc Perkel, linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 7:25 AM
Michael Tharp wrote:
> Marc Perkel wrote:
>
>> The important point that you are missing here is that
>> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
>> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
>> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
>> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
>> committed to getting it right.
>>
I wonder, do these sorts of people email random celebrities and tell
them they suck? If not, why do they think emailing a developer mailing
list about how much they hate their product, work ethics, and general
way of life is more socially acceptable?
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Tim Tassonis
To: LKML
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Hi Marc
> Before everyone gets pissed off and freaks out why
> don't you ponder the question why rm won't delete all
> the files in the directory. If you can't grasp that
> then you're brain damaged.
>
> Think big people. Say NO to vi!
At first I thought you've got a point here: you definitely _do_ suffer
from brain damage. Then again, I know too many people without brain
damage that are using vi, so it must me something else.
Maybe a car accindent, or your mother drinking a bottle of vodka per day
in your pregnancy?
Regards
Tim
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
Also note what is revealed subtly - The awesome power of Linux... A Linux Developer (Ollie Wild) could change the arument list length of all commands in a moment and also commit the changes for the next build... WOW!!!
=====================================================
Subject: The vi editor causes brain damage
------------------------
From: Marc Perkel
To: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 10:50 AM
Let me give you and example of the difference between
Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
what it's like out here in the real world.
Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
rm *
What do you get?
/bin/rm: Argument list too long
If you map a network drive in DOS and type:
del *
It works.
That's the problem with the type of thinking in the
open source world. Why can DOS delete an infinite
number of files and rm can't? Because rm was written
using the "vi" editor and it causes brain damage and
that's why after 20 years rm hasn't caught up with
del.
Before everyone gets pissed off and freaks out why
don't you ponder the question why rm won't delete all
the files in the directory. If you can't grasp that
then you're brain damaged.
Think big people. Say NO to vi!
Marc Perkel
Junk Email Filter dot com
From: Al Viro
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:45 AM
On Sat, Aug 18, 2007 at 10:20:34PM -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
[snip]
Marc, why don't you do the obvious thing and hire Jeff Merkey?
He used to work on netware kernel, you are a netware fanboy...
Hell, he might even share - his peyotl for whatever you are on;
it certainly has... intriguing effects, so who knows - maybe the
mix will give the right kind of out-of-box experience for you ;-)
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Al Viro
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:59 AM
--- Al Viro
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2007 at 10:20:34PM -0700, Marc
> Perkel wrote:
> > Let me give you and example of the difference
> between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> [snip]
>
> Marc, why don't you do the obvious thing and hire
> Jeff Merkey?
> He used to work on netware kernel, you are a netware
> fanboy...
> Hell, he might even share - his peyotl for whatever
> you are on;
> it certainly has... intriguing effects, so who knows
> - maybe the
> mix will give the right kind of out-of-box
> experience for you ;-)
>
hmmmmm .....
So if you take Peyote then you think of things like
"rm *" should delete all the files in a folder and if
you're not on drugs then del from DOS being better
than rm in Linux is OK.
For what it's worth. I agree it seems to be that way.
I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
fantastic.
Marc Perkel
Junk Email Filter dot com
--------
From: Jiri Slaby
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
>
> rm *
>
> What do you get?
>
> /bin/rm: Argument list too long
What does this have to do with rm command?
--
Jiri Slaby (jirislaby at the rate of gmail.com)
Faculty of Informatics, Masaryk University
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 9:54 AM
On Sunday 19 August 2007, Marc Perkel wrote:
> > > Let me give you and example of
> > > brain damaged thinking
> > > out here in the real world.
> I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
> fantastic.
Sounds like it hasn't worn off yet.
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Willy Tarreau
To: Jiri Slaby
Cc: Marc Perkel
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 12:51 PM
On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 09:15:22AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> > Let me give you and example of the difference between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
> >
> > Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
> >
> > rm *
> >
> > What do you get?
> >
> > /bin/rm: Argument list too long
>
> What does this have to do with rm command?
Nothing, and no more with linux development. Marc confuses shell and rm.
Under DOS, when he types "del *", the shell calls the builtin function
"del" and passes it only one argument "*". The del function is then
responsible for iterating through the files using getfirst/getnext.
This is also why mostly only builtin shell commands support "*", while
most external commands do not support it, since they have to re-implement
the same code to iterate through the files (try "debug c*.com", it will
not work).
Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names to
the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in arguments
can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs were invented!
The solution is easy : find . -maxdepth 1 xargs rm
So this has nothing to do with rm, nor with rm being open-source, and
even less with rm being written with vi, and Marc's rant is totally
wrong and off-topic. Maybe he was drunk when posting, or maybe someone
used his keyboard to make him look like a complete fool. Or maybe he
really is.
Willy
(please do not follow up on this OT thread, responses to /dev/null)
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Benny Amorsen
To: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:01 PM
>>>>> "WT" == Willy Tarreau
WT> Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names
WT> to the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in
WT> arguments can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs
WT> were invented!
It would be very handy if the argument memory space was expanded.
Many years ago I hit the limit regularly on Solaris, and going to
Linux with its comparatively large limit was a joy. Now it happens to
me quite often on Linux as well.
What are the primary problems with expanding it? It used to be
swappable memory, is that still the case?
/Benny
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Paolo Ornati
To: Benny Amorsen
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:09 PM
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:31:21 +0200
Benny Amorsen
> >>>>> "WT" == Willy Tarreau
>
> WT> Under unix, the shell resolves "*" and passes the 10000 file names
> WT> to the "rm" command. Now, execve() may fail because 10000 names in
> WT> arguments can require too much memory. That's why find and xargs
> WT> were invented!
>
> It would be very handy if the argument memory space was expanded.
> Many years ago I hit the limit regularly on Solaris, and going to
> Linux with its comparatively large limit was a joy. Now it happens to
> me quite often on Linux as well.
>
done :)
commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
Author: Ollie Wild
Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
mm: variable length argument support
Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by copying the strings
directly from the old mm into the new mm.
--
Paolo Ornati
Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896 on x86_64
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:37 PM
--- hotmetal at the rate of verizon.net wrote:
> On Sunday 19 August 2007, Marc Perkel wrote:
> > > > Let me give you and example of
>
> > > > brain damaged thinking
>
> > > > out here in the real world.
>
> > I tried Peyote once about 25 years ago and it was
> > fantastic.
>
> Sounds like it hasn't worn off yet.
Afreed.
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Jiri Slaby
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:38 PM
--- Jiri Slaby
> Marc Perkel napsal(a):
> > Let me give you and example of the difference
> between
> > Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> > what it's like out here in the real world.
> >
> > Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
> >
> > rm *
> >
> > What do you get?
> >
> > /bin/rm: Argument list too long
>
> What does this have to do with rm command?
>
See what I mean?
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Willy Tarreau
Cc: Marc Perkel
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 6:52 PM
[Quoted text hidden]The important point that you are missing here is that
the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
committed to getting it right.
Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
number of files.
I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
this.
THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
cult.
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Willy Tarreau
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Jiri Slaby
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:03 PM
On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 06:22:37AM -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
The important point you are missing is that it is not the rm command
which is broken. Either it's *all* commands or it's *your* way of
thinking how they should work.
I could play your game and say the "type" command is broken under
DOS. Why can't I do "type *" under DOS while I can do "cat *" under
linux ? For the exact same reason : the "*" is not processed at
the same place. Unix initially chose to process it in the caller,
and DOS later chose to process it in the callee. Neither is right,
neither is wrong, those are just two different approaches which may
be justified in their context. Having discovered DOS at 1.25 which
did not even support directories, I certainly can say that missing
globbing was not a problem at this time!
> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
> committed to getting it right.
It has nothing to do with programming standards, the rm command works
exactly like all others. Touch does the same, mv does the same, etc...
Educate yourself before stating idiocies like this !
> Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
> try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
> Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
> of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
> number of files.
$ rm -rf $DIR will remove an unlimited number of files in this directory.
If you want to make a special case of "rm", then implement the special
case in the command and make it possible to pass it a globbing expression
just like you can do with find. But this will be useless.
> I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
> this.
Oh yes, they are surely laughing at you, but at the same time they may
feel sad to be defended by people puting such stupid statements in public.
> THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
>
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
Yes, I really think you're the only one who has this problem. Don't you
think that among those tens of millions of users, none of them has ever
had to remove a directory full of files in 20 years ? Please stop taking
yourself for the center of the world and buy a "unix for newbies" book
instead of complaining the world is not like you would like it to be.
Willy
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Torsten Duwe
To: Willy Tarreau
Cc: Jiri Slaby
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:25 PM
On Sunday 19 August 2007, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 09:15:22AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> > What does this have to do with rm command?
> Nothing, and no more with linux development. Marc confuses shell and rm.
> (please do not follow up on this OT thread, responses to /dev/null)
Then do not answer in the first place. Do not answer at all. There's tons of
good literature that explains this. Don't feed the troll.
Torsten
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Jose Celestino
Reply-To: Marc Perkel
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Willy Tarreau
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 7:36 PM
Words by Marc Perkel [Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 06:22:37AM -0700]:
[Quoted text hidden]Yuhu! The rm command isn't broken (nothing is broken related to this).
Have you been reading? Can you even (read)?
Fscking troll.
--
Jose Celestino
"And on the trillionth day, Man created Gods." -- Thomas D. Pate
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Paolo Ornati
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: Willy Tarreau
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 8:18 PM
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
Marc Perkel
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
Fixed in 2.6.23-rc (and not just for "rm"):
commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
Author: Ollie Wild
Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
mm: variable length argument support
Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by copying the strings
directly from the old mm into the new mm.
[...]
--
Paolo Ornati
Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896-dirty on x86_64
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Marc Perkel
To: Paolo Ornati
Cc: Willy Tarreau
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 9:02 PM
--- Paolo Ornati
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
> Marc Perkel
>
> > 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions
> of
> > users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has
> a
> > problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux
> is a
> > cult.
>
>
> Fixed in 2.6.23-rc (and not just for "rm"):
>
> commit b6a2fea39318e43fee84fa7b0b90d68bed92d2ba
> Author: Ollie Wild
> Date: Thu Jul 19 01:48:16 2007 -0700
>
> mm: variable length argument support
>
> Remove the arg+env limit of MAX_ARG_PAGES by
> copying the strings
> directly from the old mm into the new mm.
> [...]
>
> --
> Paolo Ornati
> Linux 2.6.23-rc3-g2a677896-dirty on x86_64
>
Good man!
Marc Perkel
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Arjan van de Ven
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Sun, Aug 19, 2007 at 11:02 PM
On Sun, 2007-08-19 at 06:22 -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
no the important point is that you're an absolute horrible troll and are
posting things to the ENTIRELY WRONG MAILING LIST. For some people who
are new that happens sometimes as accident. You know better.
So please take this elsewhere and try to have better judgement in the
future as to what mailinglist you want to send your complaints to.
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Valdis.Kletnieks at the rate of vt.edu
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 1:44 AM
Attachments: noname
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:20:34 PDT, Marc Perkel said:
> Let me give you and example of the difference between
> Linux open source world brain damaged thinking and
> what it's like out here in the real world.
>
> Go to a directory with 10k files and type:
>
> rm *
>
> What do you get?
>
> /bin/rm: Argument list too long
Given that you don't even understand that this message is issued by the
*shell* and not /bin/rm, and *why* it issues that sort of error message
when an argument string expands to be bigger than MAX_ARGV, and the fact
that there are extant patches to increase that to essentially any reasonable
size, why should we listen to you when you proclaim that you have any sort
of enlightenment about systems design?
--------
From: Michael Tharp
To: Marc Perkel
Cc: linux-kernel at the rate of vger.kernel.org
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 4:33 AM
Marc Perkel wrote:
> The important point that you are missing here is that
> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
> committed to getting it right.
Thanks man, you've made my day. I haven't laughed this hard at a mildly
technical discussion in weeks.
> Just like my thinking outside the box thread when I
> try to say "this is broken" people don't go fix it.
> Instead I get an explanation why Linux isn't capable
> of having an rm command that will delete an unlimited
> number of files.
Calling something that bas been working for decades broken, and offering
a vague idea that is not only riddled with usability issues but also
unimplementable in an even remotely efficient manner, and yet expecting
people to jump into action and write it for you while deprecating an
enormous amount of existing code, is something best described as
surreal. Disregarding peer review and calling it an "attack" is just
icing on the cake.
> I bet there are Microsoft people out there laughing at
> this.
Probably at you.
> THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE !!!
>
> 20 years, a million programmers, tens of millions of
> users and RM is BROKEN. Am I the only one who has a
> problem with this? If so - I'm normal - and Linux is a
> cult.
All hail Linus the great.
-- m. tharp
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Casey Dahlin
To: Michael Tharp
Cc: Marc Perkel
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 7:25 AM
Michael Tharp wrote:
> Marc Perkel wrote:
>
>> The important point that you are missing here is that
>> the Linux world is willing to live with an rm command
>> that is broken and the Windows and DOS world isn't.
>> This isn't about the rm command it's about programming
>> standards. It's about that the Linux community isn't
>> committed to getting it right.
>>
I wonder, do these sorts of people email random celebrities and tell
them they suck? If not, why do they think emailing a developer mailing
list about how much they hate their product, work ethics, and general
way of life is more socially acceptable?
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
From: Tim Tassonis
To: LKML
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Hi Marc
> Before everyone gets pissed off and freaks out why
> don't you ponder the question why rm won't delete all
> the files in the directory. If you can't grasp that
> then you're brain damaged.
>
> Think big people. Say NO to vi!
At first I thought you've got a point here: you definitely _do_ suffer
from brain damage. Then again, I know too many people without brain
damage that are using vi, so it must me something else.
Maybe a car accindent, or your mother drinking a bottle of vodka per day
in your pregnancy?
Regards
Tim
[Quoted text hidden]
--------
This is the power of Reliance...
This happened when me and my friend went to a cobbler guy near Swastik char raasta to get a bag repaired. This guy.. out of all his paraphernalia.. also has a Reliance Mobile phone.. Thats the power of Reliance...
Mera Bharat Mahan...
I found this wonderful Indian Flag at our hostel. It had been up all day on the Independence day. And really love it.. Thanks to the guy.. Who ever it was...
Wild Life at Nirma (hmm.. Not exactly wild life)
Here's how the dogs at Nirma are pampered - or should I say pamper themselves...
Another instance of Bad Bazaar !!!
There has already been a post which talks about Big Bazaar. Here;s another instance at the Big Bazaar, ISKCON.
Here's a bed which they were selling. The top piece of one of the legs has come out. Some one has neatly put it on the bed. Just imagine what quality of products they are selling. And after some time I could not even find even that piece. Obviously some naughty kid has taken it home to play...
Here's a bed which they were selling. The top piece of one of the legs has come out. Some one has neatly put it on the bed. Just imagine what quality of products they are selling. And after some time I could not even find even that piece. Obviously some naughty kid has taken it home to play...
Hope Reliance is a better alternative to this crap!
Wild Life at Nirma !!!
Although its like a jungle, Nirma has very good campus. So when its like a jungle, there should be some wild life too.. So here's a snake which (God know how) was found on the third floor of our hostel..
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